Markco's Corner - You Fan Boys

Sunday I created a post outlying why I feel Gevlon’s strategies (his anti qa3 user strategies to be specific) were pretty fail with regards to his inscription ‘business.’ I had a very specific reason for causing this drama which I will get into shortly, but first let me discuss a few things which came up in the mean time. Stay with me this will be worth it I promise!

Gevlon for quite some time toted that he could defeat qa3 users by massively posting 5 gold glyphs on 24 or 48 hour posting times. My goal was to prove that this was a foolish idea which only worked on auctioneers who have no concept of the value of glyphs. In order to prove it however, I had to actually do it and show that even on my tiny server there were a few auctioneers who understood that buying out a 5 gold glyph and relisting it for 60 was a good idea. I also showed that the profits from this strategy were pathetic in comparison to running qa3. Gevlon however misunderstood my post and responded just as I knew he would. He started crying about how he's using the same sophisticated methods as myself and that he has a 7 gold threshold, 20 gold fallback. First off... that fallback is too low, it should really be around 60 gold and second his threshold is too high... anyone following the 5 gold strategy would cause all his glyphs to go to 20 gold and ruin his chances of selling completely. Ironic isn't it? What's really funny is that he admitted that he has never put the 5 gold strategy to use... just theory crafted it.

I came at Gevlon with facts and he came back by saying I was wrong but … right? It was weird and his comments which I deleted were even stranger… he told me I knew as much about inscription as I do about cows… really Gevlon how do you know that my grandpa isn’t a farmer and I might actually know quite a bit about cows?! He also started deleting comments like crazy… there’s no explanation for my blog having more comments than his, especially on a topic such as this. All I know is that my facts and reasoning pissed Gevlon off quite a bit. Obviously I got under his skin and scared him or else he wouldn't have posted a link to my blog or even made a response. To respond at all lends credibility to the post and reveals how anxious he is when I do call him on his magic act for what it is. Good, that psychopath deserved a kick in the butt and I find it funny that he says our strategies are the same but then says that mine are worse. How hilarious! First I was a capitalist who couldn’t defeat his 5 gold glyph strategy and now I’m a capitalist who has an inferior yet identical strategy with good methods that improve anyone’s business!

Let's learn from Gevlon's mistakes. Gevlon has a very narrow minded view regarding inscription, that is to say that he only posts glyphs and he doesn't look at the wow economy from a bird's eye view, taking into account all professions and methods involved in making gold. This simplicity appeals to the masses of copy cats but does not always work as well as you'd think. Inscription is not just about glyphs, it's also about enchanting through vellums and even effects alchemy because you will need to split profits between milling for glyphs and creating potions of wild magic and potions of speed (plus flasks if you do that which I do not). You can also sell runescrolls, off hands and even possibly rituals of the new moon with each new twilight movie. Gevlon's pricing for glyphs is too rigid and not ideal for making the most money from inscription because he just doesn't care to improve his strategy any further than what initially works. He does not grasp the concept of the wow economy as a living, breathing entity. On Tobold's blog Gevlon stated that he makes 4k a week using his method however I make 4k on a good day from my own inscription business. Why do I make so much more posting at the same intervals twice a day? Well it's partially because I'm also selling off hands, vellums, runescrolls and rituals. Indirectly I'm making gold through enchanting but I do not include that in my numbers. My glyph pricing allows me to make larger margins of profit with my bigger fallback than Gevlon's and my smaller threshold takes care of undercutters who go below Gevlon's 7 gold threshold. This way I'm able to sell more glyphs in a wider range of prices. Hence why I am making many more times as much gold as Gevlon per week with probably less effort as I focus on glyphs that are worth more than 30 gold on average. (these glyphs can still drop like rocks in price so if they do I can still post down to my 3 gold threshold).

I also have a snatch list for glyphs that are the most popular (going as high as 70 gold when supply is super low) and I readily buy up people willing to sell their glyphs for 5 gold on a day when the market is flooded with them. So if Gevlon ever tried his 5 gold glyph strategy (which it appears I have more experience with it than he does!) I wouldn't even be effected. Something Gevlon also probably doesn't do is watch for when his competition logs on, I have them all friended and will wait the extra 5 minutes for them to finish posting and logging before posting my own glyphs.

This whole Gevlon vs Markco thing is funny because it doesn't matter. I'm having fun with this, poking at the psychopath who says he has no social feelings but blows up like an atom bomb if anyone challenges him. He really is a magician who fabricates stories to the point that even he believes them. He can't feel the emotions that most people feel, the feelings of being wrong or hurtful or unfair... I call him a psychopath for a reason after all. There are some fans who get really upset over the whole idea of one blogger poking at another blogger's ideas. Keep in mind, my previous post ONLY attacked gevlon's ideas and blog, there was nothing about his person that I assaulted. Maybe I indirectly targeted his self esteem but that is only because mr. Gevlon can dish it out but he sure can't take it. So for those of you keeping score at home remember who has been attacking ideas and who has simply been name calling and attacking my person. Then toss out the score card because who really cares? Either way you'll be getting fine gold tips from my blog and the occasional gem from Gevlon's. Even if it's the same boring inscription tip over and over again.

And now for the reason behind bringing up this drama and getting Gevlon to blow up like I expected him to... ah yes my master lesson for the fans out there...

You see Gevlon and Markco fans… you’re doing it wrong. That’s right, you are doing it wrong. You follow and you copy and you follow and you copy only to get taken to the cleaners by people who are not following or copying. I am saying this in as respectful a way as possible because I actually do want you all to succeed. I base my strategies and blog on the very idea that everyone can break a million gold if they want to. But if you pay careful attention to the people that have “succeeded” then you will find that all their methods differ. You see they took the ideas of others and they adapted, improvised and improved upon them. What works for one server doesn’t necessarily work for another so while one millionaire might sell thousands of individual iceblade arrows or I might sell 2k gold worth of leg armors in a day or Zamboni might use 10 epic gem transmutes you will not necessarily get the same results! If you follow Gevlon to the letter you will probably see some success and if you follow my blog to the letter you will also see some success,  but if you start thinking and analyzing you will eventually become a much better player.

With regards to inscription, several factors determine the eligibility of a 'strategy,' such as herb prices, number of competitors and when you can post. Don't ever assume you can just copy another player's strategy and if you do make sure you fit all the prerequisites (like having every glyph in the game).

So burn those Markco and Gevlon t-shirts and start having fun discovering your own ways to make gold. I’ll be happy to help you along the way, I’ve been trying for quite a long time and hopefully this drama will wake you up!

You guys rock, keep on selling and buying,

Markco

31 comments: on "Markco's Corner - You Fan Boys"

  1. Sometimes you two remind me of http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/us_and_canada/10504627.stm

    I wonder which of you could eat the most hot-dogs.
    :)

  2. This wall of text, while it 'doesn't matter?' In my opinion, you both have overinflated egos. Each realm has probably over 5 people making a lot of gold with inscription. From anything you both have written there is nothing that suggests you are better than my own servers competition or my own trials and errors. Just because you two are self-proclaimed gold gods and people read what you write, does not mean everyone is following your every strategy. This is not rocket science and suggesting people should 'start' making their own choices is a bit condescending.

  3. I just read this comment by Zamboni at http://www.mnctech.net/?p=193#comments :

    July 7th, 2010 on 11:30 am

    "His first post about his QA settings claimed a 7g threshold and an 8g fallback. His next post claims a 20g 'properly set' fallback. Before that, his 6g/12g Auctioneer settings were supposed to defeat anyone listing 20g glyphs by driving prices to 0 in 33 cycles. Naturally, all of these price points have been tested superior to each other.

    He’s still droning on about deep undercutting, but his prices are now those that deep undercutting was supposed to prevent. Deep undercutting was a failure, and he’s abandoned it for the cherry-picking, ink-conserving, high-fallback camping that we developed a year ago.

    Welcome to the slacker side, Gevlon. Cookie?"

  4. Great post Markco. I used to follow Gevlon's blog, but I found I wasn't getting much new information from him, so I removed it from my RSS feeds. The thing I like about JMTC is that you are not all about Glyphs - you cover any and all methods of making gold. Personally, I dabble in the AH, using some techniques I have gleaned from JMTC and a few other gold blogs and a few of my own. I manage to make a comfortable "living" - not much by your standards, but more than enough to keep my army of toons well fed and supplied with cool toys. ;^)

    I always treat gold blogs like stock market, horse racing and blackjack tips - try to glean what information you can from them, but never follow the advice slavishly. The problem with following any gold making (or real money making) advice is that there are many, many other people out there who could be following the same advice. Way back when I was heavily into Blackjack, the blogs and newsletters had a lot of good advice, but the best money making tips were rarely, if ever, published in a public forum. Any tips that were published were quickly rendered unprofitable because too many other punters were reading the same sources. What I found I had to do was try to learn how the experts arrived at these strategies and then come up with my own strategies based on a mix of the advice I got from the blogs and my own research into the game. The WoW AH is the same - if anyone else on your realm has read the same blogs as you, then you are both playing the same game and you will struggle to come out in front. You really have to try to distil the essence of the advice being offered and forge your own customised tactics.

  5. if i met gelvon irl ill end up punching him. hes so snobby

  6. Meh, I never cared to read though a gold making tips from gevlon as he first feels the need to lecture on macro economics from a sociopaths point of view in somewhat broken English. There is always a lecture, it is always a bit weird. I'm not convinced he knows much about economics, but then nobody really does.

    It's fairly easy to make gold in the closed economic world of Warcraft, and I've never understood his position that people were somehow stupid if they didn't play the auction house on his terms. It reads like wow is the only part of his life he has control over, so takes it personally if he loses face.

  7. Scrooge the whole point of this post is to NOT follow my every strategy.

    It will sound condescending if you're already a step ahead of the crowd, but if you're new or naive it will be a nice wake up call.

    Gevlon is not even in my stratosphere, he makes profit from one profession with one aspect of it... I make gold from every profession at once. There are other people out there doing the same, hence why this site is a community of gold makers and not just me.

    I do not claim to be the best scribe on my server or that other people can't make gold at the same time as me.

    I'm not self proclaimed... people tell me I'm a gold guru!

  8. Hi Markco,

    I would agree that following straight strategies doesn't work - as more and more people are looking at sites such as this, and you can guarantee that every time a new "Uber tip" is posted by this or any other site, that the ripple effect is that load try it, have all the same competition, and don't make the sort of money that the innovater did.

    All the while they skew the market to such a way that the patient seller can then make the most out of the situation.

    My real question for Markco is: apart from practice, what do you do to get the "birds eye" view of things and see how you can innovate on the ideas. For me, knowing what things you look out for, tools you use, references etc. would be 200% more useful than a step by step strategy.

  9. Great Post Markco. Someone needs to put that fool in check, but wait. If not for his weak strategy, I wouldn't be able to buy out all the glyphs on my server that are down to around 1.25g each! Thanks to you copycats out there as well. You are savin me tons of time milling and crafting.

    Who is that dumb to waste herbs and time milling and crafting to sell glyphs that low? Selling herbs themselves would make more profit than that.

  10. Gevlon's blog is entirely about "socials" and "naysayers who say we can't do X" (which probably don't even exist, nobody cares) these days. Is proving him wrong even worth your time?

  11. The bottom line is that you pointed out a flaw in his method. You never personally attacked him but his response was to personally attack you. It doesn't show Gevlon in a good light for doing that.

    Gevlon if you are reading this, you should have wrote a new post on your blog debating your method against Markco's instead of using personal attacks. Maybe you could take constructive criticism and adjust your methods if they were found to be flawed. I would hope that if I wrote a method on my blog and say Markco pointed it out I would at the very least debate it with him and consider what he said.

    If you want to use personal attacks and flame people just shutdown your blog and post on the WoW forums. There is plenty of that garbage there.

  12. Thanks Scrooge, you're quite correct IMHO.
    You two just need to SHUT UP about each other, it's really tiring. Of course it is ALWAYS the best strategy to adjust a "fail safe" strategy posted by some self proclaimed "expert" to your own personal needs. I personally follow a modified strategy of Gevlon, meaning I post glyphs at a relatively low gold price, because I am never ever interested in spending the time canceling and reposting. Basically I DONT'T CARE about the few time when a certain glyph could maybe be sold for 40G profit. I'd rather "fire and forget" post it at 10G profit and be shure it will sell over the 48h span... Maybe it just works on my server because there are no goblins, but why would I care? Just do what works for YOU and don't spend so much time to talk about other people's strategies...
    And stop making calculations about gold per hour. A more GPH strategy is WORTHLESS for people like me who are unable to post twice a day, regardless of how long it would take.

  13. I know what would get a lot of interested cross readership in both your blogs...

    Why don't you two just set up a little friendly competition? You both roll DK alts on the same server, agree to start from the ground up (i.e. 0 starting gold) and agree also to compete specifically in one or a few markets such as glyphs.

    If both of you will never cease saying "the other one's wrong" and all this truly futile name calling, then at least put your methods to the test, against one another and may the best man win.

    There would have to be some "honor system" involved, either that or you'd both have to make your books publicly available for auditing, but I think it would generate some pretty interesting discussion either way.

  14. @Anonymous you can fire and forget with qa3 which is the same time as using aucitoneer to post at the price of 10 gold per glyph and you'll make far more gold in the process. Auctioneer takes much longer than qa3 to setup for all your glyphs. Plus, qa3 will tell you which glyphs you need to craft.

    I choose to play my own way and discuss what I feel is a more efficient play style.

    Glyphs are a part of making gold and inscription strategies are something I feel obliged to cover on this blog. Since people are so familiar with Gevlon's strategies I find that I can use them as a starting point to explain far better ones.

    Feel free to disagree, but attacking my obviously playfully inflated ego really doesn't serve any purpose at all.

  15. This was your 'wait and see Friday' surprise big reveal? Very underwhelming, and really no more than an attention grabber :) If lemmings were the target of this I guess you hit it.

    I don't have any fan t-shirts to burn - I think you over-value the need to redress this subject. I enjoy the tips I glean from multiple sites and consider finding out what works or doesn't work is what drives my enjoyment.

    Drama? Meh, overrated IMO but it does drive sales.

  16. I just read Gavlon's article about the three posting methods, and I have to say, for a guy who theorycrafts about economics that much, he doesn't seem to get some economic essentials.

    IMO, and in my experience, the monopolist strategy is a loser. it can work for items which are not trivial to procure; for anything which is easy to make, the crafters will simply make more within minutes, hours at worst. How deep a stack does the monopolist want to carry? How deep a stack CAN monopolist carry?

    The winner strategy, IMO and in my experience (that experience being backed by 5k/day in inscription sales), is a modification of the undercutter strategy. You set your threshold at materials cost plus the worth of your time. Then Gavlon the Auctioneer undercuts you -- fine, let HIM waste all that time for profit that barely justifies itself; and if he doesn't, then you still sell high enough to cover your expenses, plus enough of a premium to justify spending your time on it.

    Let's call this price X. X = cM (mats cost) + cT (time cost). When you see well-selling glyphs below cM, you buy them -- it's cheaper than crafting: anyone who tries to relist them at that low-low-low price point will be flat-out losing money. If the glyphs are above X, you undercut, and make a profit. In the valley between cM and X, you really don't care. Someone can undercut you, and you won't undercut back, but they end up wasting all their time crafting for miserable profit. They will make some gold, but it will not be enough to justify the effort of milling and scribing (assuming your and their valuation of effort are roughly comparable).

    You probably don't want to buy out the glyphs in that valley, because the profit will be tiny, and the big benefit of this pricing scheme -- letting the dumb undercutters run themselves ragged -- will be lost. Still, in this pricing range you are really indifferent: depending on your competitors' behavior you can buy, or not, it makes little difference unless you manage to corner the market for a brief time, or unless the herb prices run high and you treat this as cheap stock refills.

    Gavlon seems to treat the set {random, monopolist, undercutter} as a mutually-exclusive, jointly-exhaustive set of possible strategies, without considering that the decent real strategy would combine the latter two, while setting the threshold in such a way as to be indifferent to undercutting (I am fine to undercut down to X, I don't care if I get undercut below X) -- and thus indifferent to Gavlon's "QA killer" strat.

    So as I mentioned in my previous post, Gavlon's strategy amounts to taking upon yourself as great an inconvenience as you are foisting upon your competition, or a greater one. if his competitor is smart and sets his threshold to this neutral value, the point where he doesn't care whether he sells or not, Gavlon ends up in the "heads i win, tails you lose" situation..

    I have been though a number of price wars, one of them lasted a month non-stop, and this is a strategy I finally settled upon: the strategy where I flat-out don't care if my competitors undercut me at around the threshold point. If they do, they waste their time (better them than me); if they don't, I am in the black.

    This strategy should be fairly self-evident to anyone who studied some economics.

  17. Hey Markco,

    in a lot of those QA tutorials I've been through I noticed people enable "Override max price" and scale it down to 100%.
    I wondered what it did exactly and tried it out myself and my conclusion is; don't scale it down at all.
    It auto-undercuts auctions above your threshold if set appropriately.

    Currently I have my fallback set to 50g and max pricing at 500%, so my auctions scale up to 250g per glyph without my competitors knowing how high my threshold is exactly.

    Even Gevlon's 20g threshold can scale up to 200g if he raises that bar to 1000% (10x his threshold), information he didn't include.


    P.S. Bring back the straight forward gold blogging, a friendly community and just helping instead of bashing each other, no one's perfect, ever.

    P.P.S. If it doesn't matter don't rant about it, be the better & smarter person and let it go.

  18. Vennren I too let my glyphs scale up, so if someone has glyph of devastate on the ah for 100 gold I post for 99.99.99 eventhough my fallback is 60 gold.

    You and Victor made some GREAT points btw.

    I was hoping this 'drama' would bring about some good discussion about inscription and if you read through the comments this past week it really has. Thanks everyone for tossing in your valuable 2 copper.

    Some people have difficulty looking past the fact that I am obviously enjoying making fun of a Gevlon and can't see the information in the comments and post itself.

  19. Anyway, to sum it up from game-theoretic point of view...

    The purpose of my "indifference point" strategy is to be the "killer killer", the anti-PvP strat, the answer to those who, like Gavlon with his "QA killer" strat, treat AH as a pvp battleground.

    After all, the aim of any pvp strat is to affect the competitors' behavior; but if you use the "indifference strategy" I outlined above, your behavior will be unaffected by your competitors' manipulations of the price point -- thus rendering void the very foundation of any "pvp strat" like Gavlon's. If Gavlon can't affect the "indifference strategist's" behavior no matter how he prices his glyphs, what's the purpose of all these twists and turns?

    In fact the one-before-the-last round in the series of glyph price wars on my server was one of my mutual-whitelisting cartel's members deciding to undercut us -- and when he was booted from the cartel, he tried to squeeze me out by semi-deep undercutting, a-la Gavlon, posting all glyphs at 9g, 4 at a time, for 48 hours; 9g is above my "indifference point".

    I simply kept on posting without changing my behavior, and this guy eventually got frustrated (no sales, and no satisfaction of victory) and left. I see him log in every few weeks, and log out without posting anything -- I like to think he's checking the AH to see if I am still there.

    P.S. Markco, you have some really weird behavior with large posts here...

  20. Trickasmurph said... July 9, 2010 at 1:42 PM

    Personally, I don't play the ah the way most people do. I just prefer to piddle and have fun with it. I put stuff on here and there and don't really care about the gold cap. I get enough for what i need and am happy with that. What you are saying is good sense though. I read what is here and check it out on my server to see if it works there. I make price changes that need to be made or vary what i sell each day a bit. Basically I just check what is missing on the AH then go out and get some to put up. With this in mind I want to thank you and the other people that contribute here for the help that you have given me.

    Trickasmurph
    Terenas US

  21. Markco,

    I don't really play the inscription market, but the JC market is my cash cow. I use methods which I developed on my own to make my gold (along with what I have read, of course), so I agree with you on your point there.

    Also, I do actively read and comment on Gevlon's site, but I keep up to date on your posts as well. I'm not going to go into detail, but I have noted fundamental flaws with Gevlon's methods. I won't go into details here, but my methods are closer to yours, and I would never use Gevlon's methods unless I wanted to gimp my profit. I net about 40k each week in liquid profit. I'm an AH camper, but that's my game. I like it! There's no room for someone who posts for 48hrs to make a significant amount of money on my realm. Sure, I can't stop them from making a modest sum (probably 1k a day), but that's how it goes.

    I've done extensive research on virtual economies (and economics and finance in general), and I assure you that you are on the right track with your methods.

    Cheers!

  22. Gevlon is a pompous ass that lives in his own god complex filled reality.

    He speaks in circles with every subject he posts about. He contradicts himself every other sentence. So much so that by time you get done reading a post of his you have NO idea what the true facts are he speaks of.

    If you don't follow his way of thinking or do with anything as he does you are considered a M&S or a "special snowflake". If having my own thoughts, opinions AND way of doing things deems me a M&S or Special Snowflake, please sign me up to stand at the front of the line in either of those categories.

    It completely blows my mind the number of people that sing his praises, adopt his belief system & then change the way they think and do merely, because "Gevlon said so" and they don't want to be considered a M&S.

    It took me reading all of 3 of his blog posts to never open that blog again.

    Please people, stop singing his praises and behaving as mindless Gevlon following twits. Take what info is useful to you on any gold making blog, adapt it to what works for you and to hell with the rest.

    If Gevlon & Markco want to flame each other in their blogs, more power to em! After all they are their blogs to do with as they please. It's simple, if you don't like it don't read...imagine that concept.

  23. Deepcut care to do a guest post on your assessment of the wow economy or even my strategies? :D

    I don't understand why some commenters want me to shut up on a topic that they can really benefit from (if they are scribes).

    If you've been reading and paying attention you've learned:

    Not to post glyph walls as your only strategy.
    How to defeat glyph walls or at least make the most of them.
    There's a tutorial on qa3 in the tutorials section of the blog.
    You should post without cancelling if you have the stockpile available.
    You can time your posts around your competition.
    3 gold threshold, 60 gold fallback is a good way to roll with the glyphs.
    There's more to inscription than just glyphs...

    ...and much more!

  24. With the current herb prices in mind (20-50g) on the AH,at what price would you buy glyphs out to drain your competitors from their supply?
    Glyphs below 3g? 2g? 1g50s? or as low as 50s each?

    Or do you let those glyphs just expire and add them to a "do-not post for a while"-list?
    I've been wondering about how other scribes deal with that part of stock & price management.

    Late night brainstorming can be weird.

  25. "You should post without cancelling if you have the stockpile available."

    This depends an if you want to gum up the middle price points or not. If you want the price to jump back up to fallbacks if there's a surge in sales, you have to clean out your old posts. If you want prices to stay as they are, then you leave a minefield of old listings to prevent the fallback.

    While you may be getting sales as your old auctions are purchased, you're making less gold from each one than if you had replaced them full fallback listings.

    (Secretly, most of us just leave them up because we're too lazy to deal with cancel scans. We're willing to accept the lower-priced sales in exchange for less mailbox time.)

  26. Ok this has probably been posted before but...

    Assuming heavy competition over Inscription on a server (specifically glyphs), and assuming you have a range of methods of posting by the various players.

    Couldn't you effectively make gold without any of the effort of milling or even leveling inscription?
    If you merely grab the heavy undercuts and repost over time you would effectively be doing what many inscriptors do now. Without any of the hassle?

    It wouldn't work with many professions, but thanks to glyphs low list price and huge price fluctuations it seems like a reasonable strategy if you do not wish to just go all in.

    Be interesting too see if this could be done on a server, starting without inscription.

  27. I'm not an Inscriptor so I don't really follow the Inscription "debates". I don't read the Greedy Goblin much either, but Gevlon seems to rely too much on Inscription in order to make money. Has he put all his eggs in one basket? After all, there are so many other ways to make gold.

  28. shh about the "Rituals of the New Moon" and stop ruining my niche XD

    Other than that, you've hit the nail on the head, "people who copy strategies are wrong"; for there is no easy WoW money-making scheme and it is hard work.

  29. you guys realize these sites make money off ads right? they are trying to score hits, that is all.

  30. Thought you said previously that you weren't going to continue this pissing match with Gevlon.

    I don't read his blog because I don't like his attitude.

    When I read yet another post by you about him, I don't read yours for a few months either.

    /sad

  31. I am not pissing with Gevlon, I'm illustrating two points:

    1. You can learn from his limited interpretation of the inscription profession and making gold with it.

    2. You should think for yourself and not follow any gold blog (including this one) to the letter.

    What's wrong with poking fun at someone who makes 4k gold a week with a profession that can easily clear 14k a week, and then goes around toting strategies he's never even put to use? I am attacking his strategies, that is fair game imo.

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